Health and Healing

Droppings as Diagnostic Tool

For Photos and Descriptions see:
http://harrisonsbirdfoods.com/avian_medicine/mak172.htm
also here: Poopology

From Susanne Russo

 Droppings DO tell alot.  As far as myself..it is my most used
*visual diagnostic*

Most dropping info. on the internet and books is basic and not very
detailed.  For instance when I do give a medication and if within the
next 2-3 droppings I see a change in color of the urates (usually yellow
to pale green) I *know* that dosage was too strong.  It is also hitting
the liver.  If the urates change texture to gritty or chalky looking the
meds. are interfering/damaging the kidneys....

Okay...I am working with a cockatiel right now that I found down on the
floor of the flight, with paralysis of the legs.  This one is my fault
as far as the condition.  I suspected zinc poisoning last week, and due
to one thing or another I did not pull the bird.  He's in a large 14' x
6' flight with almost 40 other cockatiels.

I brought him in the house and immediately SubQ warm Lactated Ringers
into him, and some B-complex.  The first droppings took about an hour to
pass and were very thin chalky and yellow, no solids, little liquid.
The next droppings were still chalky and discolored but also contained a
slight bit of blood, no solids.  The next droppings were very scant and
dark black-green, little urates, little fluid.  Now the blood could've
been from the digestive tract or the kidneys.  The condition of the
droppings tells me that this bird has not had any food or water in over
24+ hours.  Right now I'm on my second round of SubQ Ringers.  This is
(above) in the space of 3 1/2 hours.  My main goal is to right now get
fluids into the bird and get the digestive (by  subcutaneous methods)
tract moving.  The most recent droppings are showing a slightly lighter
dark green, and increased solids, a little more fluid, urates still
discolored yellow, but the texture is improving.

That's where I'm at now.  Once I get better solids and urates I will
start the CaEDTA, and also tube feed a thin mixture of Slippery Elm,
gentian, and cornsilk into the bird for a feeding or 2, then start
feeding more solids....etc.

Somehow we have to have a good description of how the *Various* types of
birds dropping look in the *normal state.*  This also would look
slightly different between a pelleted or seed eating bird.  From there
what to look for as diagnostic of the condition in the illness state.
This is where good photo's would be a asset

<< follow to get info on droppings. Clean the floor. Put down waxed paper.
Monitor all the droppings and make some notes for those of us on AHH to
make a decision. It would be ideal to direct them to pictures of NORMAL
and they can key off that for their description. >>>

Bird owners should keep a small file that charts the
frequency, color, and amount of droppings, and variances per feeding
time and food fed in the *normal* state.  This can be done over a period
of two days...and filed away.  It is good reference for when the owner
starts to see a change in the bird.

The same can be done as far as good accurate color photo's of the bird
in the healthy state.  Again for comparison.  When a bird gets sick the
feather colors will have a subtle change.  A dark bird will go slightly
paler in feather color and have a slightly duller look.  A white or
light colored bird will get more of a yellow suffusion, and either get a
satiny look if there is something critically wrong...or a dull powdery
look if it is minor.  There is also a change to the eyes when a bird is
ill.  Same with the tissue around the eye and tongue will get paler with
anemia.  Beak colors will change with illness.  The focus is to know and
record all the signs of the bird while healthy.  If the person is a
single pet owner, and new to birds this is difficult.  They need to
actively go out and look at the same species from reputable people with
healthy birds...and learn, learn, learn, about the type of bird you own.

Just some more thoughts....

Susanne

Urine

The watery part of the stool appears clear when it is wet, but after it
dries on the newspaper, it appears light yellow, or light green off and on. (she does shred newpaper all the time for nesting, could that be a problem?)   I suppose you could say that it could be run off from the solid part of the stool, but I do not know for sure. The solid part seems firm tho.

The other birds have more changes in their stools, more bases on changes in
what they have eaten.  For the most part, they are normal looking.

Now that I think of it, there was a time where the lovebirds droppings were
puffy whitish, but that went away.  I can only presume it is her liver, but
I have no idea what could be causing it.

She is offered a wide variety of fresh foods, plus scenic pellets, and a
natural seed mix.  She does not eat much of the fresh food tho.  She was on
zupreme pellets (colored ones ) before I switched to the scenic.

Sounds like she may benefit from dandelion greens when they come into
season.  

As I said before, she doesn't seem sick at all,  just laid 2 eggs, and is
full of  p____ and vinegar.

Will visit the web page.
Thanks,
Sandy

Now, don't quote me on this, but I thought I read that yellow or green
tinged urine could indicate kidney problems.  I know for sure that liver
disease does effect the urate (white) portion of the droppings once it is
advanced enough.
http://www.veterinarylibrary.com/reference/newsletter/avianexaminer/content/
0078.htm This article alludes to the fact that colored urine may be from
liver problems.  It also discusses Ultra Clear Plus, a product we have
discussed on the list before.

The only references I could find in Dr McCluggage's book that relate to what
you've mentioned are: p.55 "Larger amounts of urates in the droppings could
indicate a kidney disease." p 94 (under the heading: Signs of Illness)
"There might be a yellow or yellow-green color change to the urine."
Unfortunately, he doesn't elaborate in either case.  He does mention using
many things that can help the liver and kidneys.

I certainly think if what you are seeing is a symptom of dis-ease, you have
caught it in it's early stages.  That's why it is not yet effecting her
activity level, appetite, etc.  Taking a good look at her diet compared to
the diet of wild lovebirds, her environment, giving her supplements to
support what you determine the problem might be, or contacting a holistic
vet or other qualified individual may be beneficial.  I could list
everything Dr McCluggage suggests in his book, but I certainly wouldn't know
where to tell you to begin, because you have to consider many other things
about the patient & you need someone qualified to do that.  You wouldn't
want to make the problem worse or try out different treatments, hoping one
will work, while the problem progresses.

Also, most newspapers are printed with soy inks, but some are not.  It is my
understanding that the soy ink is relatively safe (according to conventional
vets), but other inks aren't.  The colored portion of the newspapers usually
contain very harmful substances.  You might want to call your local
newspaper just to ask what kind of ink they use.

Leanne

My U2 was diagnosed with a kidney density from pellets, was fighting aspergillosis and after talking to 4 vets and not being able to lower his urine PH to a normal reading I consulted Alicia. I had already chatted with her and my U2 was getting better, just by eating her diet. 

I'd asked his vet on my own about echinachea for the aspergillosis but Alicia increased the dosage by quite abit more than the recommended dosage in the veterinary medical books. What amazed me the most is that with her help, his urine PH dropped to a normal reading after only about 6 weeks. After talking to those 4 vets, and trying for a year and half, Alicia did what myself and they hadn't been able to do in only a few weeks. 

She sent me a supplement and also recommended foods to add, foods to take away. His aspergillosis titer was also excellent.....I feel partially due to the increase in the echinacea dosage. His kidney's have continued to improve on her mash diet. She's also given me recommendations to treat him for his x-ray exposures.

Shauna 

Milk Thistle will NOT help with kidney problems. Also, it is hard to help with very little details, such as if it is a baby, IS it actually kidney problems, what's been given, and what are the physical symptoms now seen, such as severe dehydration (reddened body), pain (upright penguin-like stance). 

What are droppings like?...when your close to failure you are going to see clear or bloody urine (fluid part), little solids, and thin, chalky-grit like urates (white part). When this seen the bird is very critical, and needs heat, humidity and fluid therapy (subcutaneous) 

NO medications/treatments till the bird (IF) can be stabilized. If the bird can digest, small amounts (1/2 CC at a time) of cherry juice (no additives if possible)

Susanne 

Polyuria 

 The following are conditions associated with polyuria/polydipsia. Use this as a *check-off list* (Use a search tool to research more info. if needed.) What is followed by a question ? mark (in 1994) was still not fully researched/determined in bird Dietary-induced, 

Excitement or nervousness, Apparent psychogenic polydipsia, Medications (corticosteriods,diuretics, progesterones), Toxins (eg, gentamicin), Nephrogenic diabetes insipdus, Diabetes insipidus, Diabetes mellitus, Renal glucosuria, Vitamin A deficiency, Liver disease, Renal disease, Hypercalcemia?, Hyperthyroidism?, Hyperadrenocorticism?, Hypervitaminosis D3, Elevated dietary sodium, Excess dietary protein, Excess fruit consumption 

I've lost track of who has what problems. For the fatty liver selenium (minute amounts) is good, choline helps dissolve fat. A good source that has these two ingredients, plus many of the beneficial *B's* is Brewers Yeast. 

Beneficial amino-acids that help with liver disease (protection and removes fat, and some are anti-oxidants) are:Isoleeucine, Leucine, L-Valine, Cysteine. Eggs will raise the level of these Animo-acids for aid in liver problems. (Use a search engine to research more, or consult your vet for sources of these items) A

An Animo-acid that may be useful for the person (bird) dealing with seizures, and convulsion is Taurine, which is made in the body from Cysteine 

Susanne 

From Sue (Vetoutreach) 

I had the opportunity to talk with Brian Speer, a vet who did some research on cockatiels and problems with dietary protein. He said that they found that mutations like pearly pied, whitefaced and others were for some reason sensitive to dietary protein which shows up as polyuria (lots of urine in the droppings).

They could not induce this phenomenon in normal greys. In fact, renal biopsies did not even show changes in greys or other species until the protein levels reached 72%. So the recommendation he had was to keep cockatiel mutations on lower protein and not worry in other species if the pellets were "higher protein" (ie. 20% vs. 14%). 

Of course, if your bird develops persistant polyuria, it might have a kidney problem that is exacerbated by high dietary protein. In this case, it would be prudent to not only reduce the protein levels but have it checked out thoroughly for other problems, too. 

Sue  

Uric acid 

From Susanne Russo I have some print-out info. from Harrisons as to some cockatiels having a problems with the protein (and from my *own* experiences, D3) levels in the pellets. He did up a trial pellet @ 12.5%. Still at this reduced rate some cockatiels will still have problems and recommendations were to cut with 30% rolled oats to dilute protein levels further. 

From my own experiences cockatiels will eat *some* oats, but not at that %. My recommendation would be to gradually convert over to 60-70% seeds, pellets in a separate dish (free choice), and fresh greens (preferably organic), veggies, fruits. Beans are also a source of protein so I'd back off (or offer occasionally) from them too. For therapeutic purposes dandelion greens a few times a week will help both liver and kidneys. Avoid watercress when there are kidney problems. A

s to Sue's question as to a herb....my choice would be Devil's Claw which is good for reducing cholesterol and uric acids levels. ***Note to Betsy and Beauty.*** This may be of benefit to Beauty too because her protein, cholesterol, and uric acid levels were high too. 

Cockatiels can be sensitive to the smell of powdered herbs, so I have recently been using extracts @ a ratio of 1 drop per 30 CC of distilled water. This has been for young birds in the formulas. Hopefully some of our more experienced listmembers would have advice for adult dosage/treatments. Short periods of access to direct sunlight will help too. 

Susanne 

Note: Read more about Uric Acid and Avian Gout

Offhand I would say Black cherry juice; if you can get him to eat it try some Daikon. When I have more time may be able to give you couple more suggestions & a cell salt to try. I do not believe pellets such as Scenic, Noahs, Lakes & Harrison are bad esp when they are part of a diet & I feed them on a rotational basis - a few every 2nd or 3rd day - for much the same reasons as you do. I give whole vegetables such as broccoli, celery, apples, oranges, carrots, squash etc to them for the day & don't worry when the foods like that will be in the cage for several hours- but the temp in my house is almost never over 73F.

 Kat