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Mike wrote:
It is always instructive to look at what parrots eat in the wild, and for budgies and cockatiels that is almost exclusively dry seed. I have spent many hours watching wild bidgies, cockatiels, rosellas and red-rumps feeding and all I ever see most of them them eating is seed. Any type of seed that is available.
I absolutely agree Mike. My Rosella will pick and nibble at greens, sprouts, fruit, etc. but what she EATS is her seed. I back Mike up on his observation of Australian birds and diets - most Australian pet birds are fed seed, and many live to a ripe old age on this diet.
Just to quickly turn to the addictive nature of sunflower, I have certainly seen many birds that will eat all their sunflower seed first, and be reluctant to eat other seeds. However in each case when I give them sunflower seed kernels, they are not interested, only unhulled sunflower seed. It is my believe that the fascination of many parrots with sunflower is unrelated to the taste, but is all about the enjoyment they get in the manipulation of hulling the seed.
That's an interesting perspective - I hadn't considered that before.
I have often wondered if the much greater incidence of plucking in parrots in the USA compared to Australia is due to the boredom that can come with a diet of pellets, rather than the interest that seed gives to a parrot?
Another interesting topic Mike. I think you're right that we don't have anywhere near the incidence of plucking here in Australia compared to USA. Why? Carole Bryant
I know I shouldn't be getting into this discussion, as I'm not real sure I know what I'm talking about. I know far more about softbills than parrots, and with omnivore birds they have to have animal protein in order to process the fat-soluble vitamins: A, D, E, and K.
In a study, I read about on Medscape, a group of children, in a third world country, who had a main diet of palm fruit (high in Vitamin A) and with almost no animal protein in the diet, found all of the children tested as deficient in Vitamin A. Here is the article:
Title Prevalence of malnutrition and vitamin A deficiency in Nigerian preschool children subsisting on high intakes of carotenes. Author Adelekan DA; Fatusi AO; Fakunle JB; Olotu CT; Olukoga IA; Jinadu MK; Ojofeitimi EO Address Department of Community Health, College of Health Sciences, Obafemi Awolowo University, Ile-Ife, Nigeria. Source Nutr Health, 12(1):17-24 1997 Abstract The prevalence of malnutrition and vitamin A deficiency was determined in 204 preschool children of both sexes aged 3-57 months. The children were recruited from 2 rural communities of Atakumosa Local Government Area of Osun State in South West Nigeria. Dietary vitamin A intake was estimated from frequency of consumption of locally available vitamin A containing food items. Vitamin A status of the children was assessed from concentration of retinol in plasma. Nutritional status was assessed from height and weight compared with international reference standards. The results indicate widespread malnutrition among the children. The prevalence of stunting (low height for age) was 60.8% while prevalence of wasting (low weight for height) was 7.4% and of underweight (low weight for age) 27.5%. Dietary vitamin A intake appeared to be adequate in the children. Intake of vitamin A is predominantly from plant sources. At least 43% of the children consumed the carotene rich red palm oil 6 or more times per week in contrast to less than 1% who consumed eggs or milk for 6 or more times per week. Vitamin A was low in the children. Only 11.3% of the children had plasma retinol concentration < 0.70 mumol/L. The results indicate that childhood malnutrition of public health magnitude can coexist with adequate dietary vitamin A intakes or vitamin A status.
I looked at the ingredients in Dr.D's pellets and could find no indication of any animal protein. Most of the other brands of parrot pellets contain something such as egg or other indications of animal protein sources. I think this would be a concern, as we do know that parrots require some animal protein in order to have a complete amino acid balance.
In regard to cockatiels on pellets, Dr. Harrison in a message to another list a year or so ago, stated that he thought, the mutations, especially lutinos, had a hard time with pellets as they required the bird to drink an excessive amount of water. Cockatiels (as birds from arid areas) were not able to handle the excessive amount of water, thereby the excess was causing liver disease. It seems kinda funny, as Harrisons sells pellets for cockatiels. Sincerely, Jackie
I fully realize this is controversial subject. What I'm about to say is merely my own personal opinion and experience. I AM a long-term cockatiel breeder (almost 10 years now) and I have tried many different diets on my birds over the years.
I do offer pellets (I personally use Mazuri small bird breeder pellets, but that's just personal preference and has something to do with their cost as well as quality, nutrition, and acceptibility - meaning they actually EAT them.) to my cockatiels, and many or most of them do eat some pellets, but they also get seed. Unlike many larger parrots, the cockatiel's natural or wild diet consists largely of seeding grass heads and seeds. This leads me personally to believe that a diet suitable for other parrots may not be right for cockatiels - and repeated reports over the years of kidney disease and D3 toxicity in cockatiels fed a 100% pelleted diet support my position, in my opinion - so I continue to offer my cockatiels a varied diet that consists of seed mix, pellets, and greens/vegetables. I also add extra oats (oat groats) to the commercial seed mix we buy, but I'm not sure that that makes any difference; I just know that oats are good nutrition and low in fat.
On the other hand, a 100% seed diet may be just as bad, although it causes different problems. A few months ago a acquired 41 cockatiels from an ACS Champion breeder, and 2 of them have already died - of fatty liver disease. One of the deceased birds was 8 years old, but the other was only 3! Many of these champion bloodline birds that I was so excited about getting are obese, relatively inactive, and produce poorly when set up to breed. Although they are now being offered pellets the same as my other tiels, most of them won't eat them. I suspect that I may have to temporarily force them to convert to a diet of pellets only in order to get them started eating pellets, and re-introduce seed mix later in limited amounts. And I'm sure the guy I got them from thought he was giving them a good diet - it was a premium "no sunflower" cockatiel seed mix that contains a wider variety of seed than most mixes.
As for my own cockatiels, some of the ones I've had from the very beginning are now 11 and 12 years old, still producing chicks (and having larger clutches than those much younger "champion" cockatiels!), and healthy and active. They have gone through some changes with me, but for the most part they've gotten the "variety" diet (seed, pellets, and veggies, with Petamine or the equivalent and egg/nestling food when raising chicks) and seem to have done very well on it. Of course I've had some deaths, mostly due to bacterial or viral illness, but none of MINE have died from kidney or liver disease, obesity, heart failure, D3 toxicity, or any other problem that would be associated with malnutrition or an improper diet.
Again, it's just my personal experience, and I'm only one cockatiel breeder. I may have simply gotten lucky, or started out with an extremely healthy "line" of cockatiels, but I have gotten tiels from at least a dozen different sources and bloodlines over the years, so I'm not sure how likely that really is. Anyway, for what it's worth, that's my experience. Heike
Heike wrote: My theoretical conclusion is that the birds who SURVIVED to be 60, 70, and 80 years old were the ones that ate "people food" while their seed-fed contemporaries died off. It's the only theory that makes sense to me in my own mind as to why the overwhelming majority of these older birds should be ones that were fed table food. What do you think?
I thought seed mixes only became readily available around the 1950's. Before that, people had no choice but to feed their birds what they ate, there was nothing else. So did the people that owned birds prior to the 1950's continue feeding people food, not buying into the seed thing, and that's why the birds lived so long? Birds younger than those, especially those born around the 50's or since, would much more likely have been fed seeds or, most recently, pellets. Leanne
It also sounds that those birds that ate at the table with their owners were much loved birds who spent more than average time out of their cages and probably led more interesting lives as a consequence. So for what it's worth, I would add in "interesting environment" and "emotional wellbeing" as another factors there. Carole Bryant
The potential life span of parrots is at least half of ours. The productive life of many species is 20 years or more. I would expect the organs of younger birds to be able to deal with a reasonable amount of toxicity from chemical additives in a pelleted feed, but I don't know if any of these toxins are cumulative and I don't know if they affect all species the same way. Ditto in regard to chemical supplements. However, we are in the process of learning the answers to some of these questions.
Other aspects discussed in previous posts involve whether or not it is beneficial or necessary to obtain complete nutrition in every bite of food. I doubt it. If that were true, living creatures would have been unable to survive...until the invention of manufactured diets.
Does produce offered as part of the diet 'dilute' the chemical supplements in the feed? Hopefully so. Ditto in regard to other chemical additives. More importantly, produce 'adds' something to the diet. What it adds are nutrients in a natural form that the body has evolved to utilize. It also adds nutrients that are not present in pellets or seeds. I wonder what will be the long-term effect on a body that is deprived of these substances?
Case in point: Several years ago studies were done that demonstrated fewer instances of lung cancer in people whose diets were high in beta-carotene. A more recent study, however, showed that smokers who were given beta-carotene supplements had an even higher risk of lung cancer than those who were not supplemented with beta-carotene. What made the difference?
The difference is that there is some other substance associated with beta-carotene in food that is also responsible for retarding incidence of lung cancer. Beta-carotene supplements do not have this substance because they are synthesized. The best source of beta-carotene (and the substances we haven't identified) is real food.
Polyphenols include astringent-tasting compounds called tannins, which is one of the substances under investigation by the National Cancer Institute as a natural anti-cancer compound. Fruits are rich in polyphenols.
Strawberry extract paralyzes some viruses and makes them unable to penetrate healthy cell membranes so they can't insert their DNA into the cell for replication. Many fruit extracts have the same effect, even in low doses. Fruits having the highest anti-viral activity are bueberry, crabapple, cranberry grape, plum, pomegranate, raspberry, and strawberry. Peach is least effective. Apple juice, red wine, and tea were also effective. Researchers have identified the active antiviral agents in the fruits to be tannins, which coat virus particles and neutralize them.
Polyphenols are powerful antioxidents and are widely available in common food. Caffeic acid, ellagic acid, ferulic acid, and gallotannic acid (green tea) all block mutations of cancer in tissue culture and in animal studies.
The pectin in apples keeps the cardiovascular system healthy and helps to regulate blood sugar.
Apricots are high in beta carotene plus other unidentified phytonutrients that are reputed in folklore to increase longevity.
Artichokes lower blood cholesterol and stimulate bile and urine production. In 1969 French scientists took out a patent for artichoke extract because of its success in treating kidney and liver ailments. The active ingredient is cynarin.
Unripe banana and plantain is used in India for treating ulcers and other stomach disorders by strengthening and thickening the surface cells of the stomach lining. They trigger the release of a protective layer of mucus.
Blueberry combats diarrhea (especially that caused by E.coli bacteria), kills infections viruses, blocks damage to blood vessels (calcium/fat build up), The active components are anthocyanosides.
Broccoli contains potent cancer fighters: carotenoids, chlorophyll, indoles, glucosinolates, and dithiolthiones. It also heals radiatin sickness.
Brussels sprouts, along with cabbage and broccoli are part of the cruciferous family that effectively fight cancer. The chemicals identified are the same as those found in broccoli. The raw vegetable contains antithyroid chemicals that are neutralized by cooking.
Cabbage is considered the longevity food. The lowest death rates are found in cultures where the most cabbage is consumed. In addition to fighting cancer similar to Broccoli and brussles sprouts, it boosts the immune system, destroys bacteria and viruses, and contains an unidentified 'growth factor'.
Cherries are used to cure kidney stones, gall bladder ailments, gout, and reduce excess mucus production.
Chili peppers act as an expectorant, decongestant, and heal lung ailments. They have been consumed to kill intestinal parasites.
Figs fight cancer, kill bacteria, and fight roundworms. Enzymes called ficins aid digestion.
Garlic fights infections and cancer, thins the blood, reduces blood pressure, stimulates the immune system, relieves bronchitis, is an antifungal and antibiotic. There have been over 125 scientific papers published about garic. Allicin and sulpher compounds are garlic's major weapons.
Kale is one of the richest of all green vegetables in carotenoids, which are converted to vitamin A in the body and is high in chlorophyll.
Squash and its seeds for the carotenes and anti-worm propeties.
Fertility issues: Peas contain substances that are an effective contraceptive. Yams are rich in hormone-like substances that trigger the release of other hormones, including FSH, which stimulate the follicles to produce eggs.
Natural fruits, vegetables, and greens abound with chemicals that the body can use to stay healthy by fighting off disease. In nature, birds can snack on what is available. In cages, they eat what we give them. Maybe they can do OK anyway if they aren't exposed to disease and if they are maintained in clinically clean environments.
A diet of pellets and seeds is missing many healthful nutrients. On the other hand, produce attracts flies and flies spread disease.
gloria
There have been lots of views put and everybody seems to have said something very valid. As a European the strange thing to me about your discussion is that you seem to be discussing only three options:
Seed and fresh foods, "normal" pellets and fresh food or "organic" pellets and fresh food. Over here the pellet option wouldn't be in the debate because everybody tried them and, when breeding results dropped, went back to what I think is the fourth option: seed supplements and fresh foods.
My view is that it is very difficult to get the vitamin levels up and balanced with seed and fresh food diets. The seed is simply too poor in these nutrients for the fresh foods to have enough impact. The same is likely to be true of the organic pellet option. With both these systems I would be particularly concerned about the amino acid levels. The protein:energy requirements of captive birds are very different from those of wild birds and diets not supplemented either with animal protein or (much better) with lysine and methionine (limiting amino acids) are prone to lead to obesity (fatty liver disease) and molting problems. Both these have been issues on this list in the last few days.
The "normal" pellet people are on the defensive with respect to anti-oxidants, colors etc. And, since I have heard Michael Massey of Pretty Bird admit that pellets are just another way of delivering vitamins, minerals and amino acids, I can't see why you need to take that "chemical" risk. Supplements (because they don't contain fats) don't need that protection to give extended shelf life.
Since the time (about seven years ago) when the British bird keeper tried and rejected pellets our supplements technology has improved dramatically. The huge range of (mostly natural) ingredients now available from the livestock and human food industries enables us to do so much that we could not do before. It can put both birds and breeders in control of their diet and it shows in health and in particular breeding results. Loads of our customers now produce more than double the number of chicks from the same number of pairs than they used to do. And they have been doing that for about four years now.
I am the first to admit that we still use some factory made vitamins in our products. I simply haven't found any other way of producing a product that works as well or is affordable from 100% natural sources. Even "organic" products like Harrisons pellets contain loads of "factory made" ingredients. But the ones I have looked at don't contain any amino acids nor can they contain a really good calcium source. At the AFA last August I met a lady whose bird, on Harrisons Hi Protein pellet, tested low for both blood calcium and blood protein levels. I have no idea whether this was a nutritional problem or whether the bird was ill but it makes me wonder.
So, just to stir you all up a bit, I propose seed, fresh foods and supplements! Malcolm Green
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